Microsoft realized their mistakes...

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mbrazil
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Microsoft realized their mistakes...

Post by mbrazil » Sun Apr 06, 2014 3:22 am

Even huge, all-powerful Microsoft realized they'd really screwed the pooch with Windows 8, so they made changes in Windows 8.1 so users who prefer the desktop and Start menu over the ugly and inefficient "Modern" user interface don't have to put up with it anymore. 8.1 is even smart enough to recognize when you're using a notebook or desktop instead of a tablet and automatically boot to the desktop (unless you have it set otherwise). They've got a ways to go, but the changes they've made so far show that they're listening to their users and trying to make their product perform like users want and need it to.

So, my question is, why can't Anderson follow Microsoft's lead and give us a new version of Avant that has a user interface and feature set like the ones in Avant 2012 or Avant 2013 prior to the 100+ builds? The new Avant is ugly, missing a lot or previous features, and is nearly useless on anything but a tablet. Microsoft now knows that a relatively small percentage of its customers use tablets exclusively, and that a significant number of their users will never use a tablet at all. Since Microsoft knows its future depends on protecting and growing its user base, it acted accordingly. Information recently released by Microsoft indicates that Windows 9 will offer a user interface even more like pre-Windows 8 versions on the appropriate types of computers. Microsoft also knows that many users are already referring to Windows 8 as Vista 2, so they realize they have to do something quickly before Windows 8 drags the company down even further, like they did when Windows 7 replaced Vista. If they were to release two bad Windows versions in a row, it might well be the beginning of the end for Microsoft.

So Anderson, wake up. Unless you want Avant to turn into a minor artifact in the history of browsers, give us Avant the way it used to be instead of the ugly, nearly worthless piece of garbage it is now!

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Re: Microsoft realized their mistakes...

Post by creep » Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:22 pm

Well said mbrazil !

I'm not only fed up with browsers designed to be bad, but also websites designed to be bad (bad meaning designed to run on a phone). On the other hand, I've seen one or two websites lately which have gone into reverse and are using a proper website again.

There might be a lot of phones but I can't imagine anyone spends much time using the browser as they won't be able to see much.

Like mbrazil (and lots of other people) I'm still using an old version of Avant and waiting for another browser to take up from where Avant left off - as I'm assuming Avant is now only aiming at minature screens. Hopefully, something new will come along soon.

It's easy to fall into the trap of thinking computing is all about phones, as that is what the companies push. Apparently online shopping is increasing "owing to people shopping on their phones and tablets". Real computers rarely get a mention. Why ? Because you can sell - and repeat sell - phones. People switch to the latest version - then they drop them again - then they have to buy another one etc, resulting in more and more sales of phones and tablets.

However, all we big screen users on real computers do still exist and are not going away. A phone or tablet is not a sensible substitute. So why not start catering again for we who really have a use for a browser and have the time and space to use one properly ??

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Re: Microsoft realized their mistakes...

Post by mathman » Mon Apr 07, 2014 5:58 pm

I have found that using old skins makes the current Avant look much more like the old Avant. Old skins are below the dotted line on the list of skins.

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Re: Microsoft realized their mistakes...

Post by mbrazil » Mon Apr 07, 2014 6:33 pm

And how does using the old skins restore the missing features and options? How does using the old skins move the sidebar back to the left side where it belongs?

The answer is, it doesn't. I'm not interested in partial fixes and workarounds that don't do anything to resolve the underlying problem -- that Anderson threw away most of what was good about Avant and replaced it with Google Chrome with some minor cosmetic differences. Avant is now crap and nothing short of a rewrite will make it any better.

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Re: Microsoft realized their mistakes...

Post by keza » Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:56 am

AB is good when you will have time to tune it to your needs. I have AB in 'Crystal' skin with the FF engine. Maybe you give this a try? And the features and options of AB are more than in FF and IE. See under the AB settings and under the settings of FF under Settings-> Mozilla Firefox-> options. That way I'm not using FF as my default browser although it's faster than the FF engine in AB. That's the only problem for me with AB and that is the speed. For testing sites I use the site webwait.com and FF is on average 2 seconds faster than the FF engine in AB. Also more page load is faster with FF. Maybe it's time to go further with thinking outside the box for a faster AB?

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Re: Microsoft realized their mistakes...

Post by mbrazil » Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:04 am

keza wrote:AB is good when you will have time to tune it to your needs. I have AB in 'Crystal' skin with the FF engine. Maybe you give this a try? And the features and options of AB are more than in FF and IE. See under the AB settings and under the settings of FF under Settings-> Mozilla Firefox-> options. That way I'm not using FF as my default browser although it's faster than the FF engine in AB. That's the only problem for me with AB and that is the speed. For testing sites I use the site webwait.com and FF is on average 2 seconds faster than the FF engine in AB. Also more page load is faster with FF. Maybe it's time to go further with thinking outside the box for a faster AB?
I've been using Avant for 14 years, and any version of it newer than 2013 build 23 is worthless for my purposes, no matter how you configure it. 2013/23 is buggy, but it still has the features that made me choose Avant in the first place. None of the newer builds have many of the features I need. It's turned to garbage, and it's not what many long-term Avant users like me want.

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Re: Microsoft realized their mistakes...

Post by mekd » Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:27 am

I completely agree with MBRAZIL.
For me the worst problem is the memory and CPU consumption of the new versions. (And yes, I use the Crystal skin)

I cannot open more than 5-6 tabs without Avant going crazy on the memory scale. My routine handle of Avant is once in a few minutes killing some ybrowser processes to free up memory and CPU. Otherwise Avant just locks up my computer.

I have moved to use Firefox (the browser itself and not Avant's engine) on many occasions. Still, like MBRAZIL, no other browser has the features Avant has. For me the Autofill feature is the only reason I use Avant along Firefox.
It is very frustrating for me to see Anderson's lack of response to the users complaints.

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Re: Microsoft realized their mistakes...

Post by keza » Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:28 pm

I've been using Avant for 14 years, and any version of it newer than 2013 build 23 is worthless for my purposes, no matter how you configure it. 2013/23 is buggy, but it still has the features that made me choose Avant in the first place. None of the newer builds have many of the features I need. It's turned to garbage, and it's not what many long-term Avant users like me want.
What do you want then? I have experience with many browsers and I do not know what's missing in AB except the speed when opening more pages at once?

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Re: Microsoft realized their mistakes...

Post by keza » Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:36 pm

For me the worst problem is the memory and CPU consumption of the new versions. (And yes, I use the Crystal skin)

I cannot open more than 5-6 tabs without Avant going crazy on the memory scale. My routine handle of Avant is once in a few minutes killing some ybrowser processes to free up memory and CPU. Otherwise Avant just locks up my computer.
I can open here +10 pages with no problem other than a low speed. Memory is here around the +300MB after tweaking the FF engine in AB. I do not know how many memory you have on board. Here I have a P4 3,4MHz with 2GB DDR3 memory and I have Norton AV, EMET, Comodo Firewall, Prolasso, Malwarebytes,... and I have +-500MB left with +-10 pages open but it is with a SSD drive. On a regular HD is AB Ultimate to heavy but with an SSD it's good when not opening to many pages at once. This is my experience with AB.

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Re: Microsoft realized their mistakes...

Post by mbrazil » Fri Apr 18, 2014 8:37 pm

keza wrote:What do you want then? I have experience with many browsers and I do not know what's missing in AB except the speed when opening more pages at once?
I want all the features and user-interface capabilities that Avant had before they were ripped out and thrown away. There are many things that Avant used to have and to be able to do that no longer exist. I don't like using an outdated version of any software because of potential security risks and bugs that will never be fixed, but that's what Anderson has forced us to do when he turned Avant into a "streamlined" Chrome clone last year. Unless Anderson wakes up and realizes what a huge mistake he made and acts to restore Avant to the highly customizable and highly versatile browser it used to be, I'll definitely be using something else before long. Unfortunately, now that Anderson no longer cares about the needs of his long-standing user base, there's little to no difference between any of the currently available browsers. None of them, including Avant, can do all the things you used to be able to do in Avant.

If you want to learn what you're missing, look around these forums. There are many topics and threads that deal with everything we lost when Anderson released Avant 2013 build 100. Search for my topics, and you'll find detailed descriptions of the things that Avant no longer has and can no longer do.

Yes, the newer builds are a trifle faster, but if you use a computer that's not ancient and obsolete, the difference is barely noticeable. I built the computer I'm currently using about five years ago, so it's hardly state-of-the-art, and yet I can barely tell the difference in speed between build 23 and the most recent builds. I'd gladly give up some of the speed in the newer builds in exchange for the return of all the good things that Avant used to have. Much of the increased speed of the 100+ builds is the result of lopping off the chunks of code that belonged to the missing features. What good is a "pretty" user interface little extra speed when you no longer have the tools you need built into the browser? It's all flashy appearance and a nearly empty browser window now. Functionality is vastly reduced in the name of a little speed and a fancy but barren user interface. Anderson murdered the real Avant!

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Re: Microsoft realized their mistakes...

Post by keza » Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:10 pm

You have 1960 post, so that is too much to go throw. Can you give a few examples what AB has thrown away?

I cannot imagine which functions where so important in AB? It has all the functions I need and I'm not such a simple person in these matters because I want something good and practical and that is AB in my eyes except the speed. FF is faster but not so functional.

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Re: Microsoft realized their mistakes...

Post by mbrazil » Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:27 pm

keza wrote:You have 1960 post, so that is too much to go throw. Can you give a few examples what AB has thrown away?

I cannot imagine which functions where so important in AB? It has all the functions I need and I'm not such a simple person in these matters because I want something good and practical and that is AB in my eyes except the speed. FF is faster but not so functional.
Start here: http://tinyurl.com/nxzppta.

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Re: Microsoft realized their mistakes...

Post by mekd » Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:44 pm

Why only focus on the missing features, while Avant lacks the basic stability and functions so poorly?

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Re: Microsoft realized their mistakes...

Post by Sara » Sun Apr 20, 2014 2:14 am

I've been using Avant since 2002 and I too, could do without all the different engines, etc. I had to retire that year and I found Avant because I was sick of pop-ups. We had nothing close to Ad-Muncher, which I use now and since Roboform hadn't been born yet those of us who couldn't keep track of our passwords were using Gator, which was why we had so much "junk" showing up on our systems. I would consider it malware now. I had been using a computer since the late 80's as both my father and brother were involved in development--my Dad from the 50's, when he wrote one of the first compilers and my brother who designs programs for industry. But, as I said, I was retired before I really had time to get to know the net. Much of what I learned I learned from this Forum as they were very patient with my not having a clue a lot of the time. As Avant developed, so did my understanding. I still can't write a program worth s**t, but I understand enough of what's going on behind the screen we see to figure out many problems. As I learned I started to help others and was granted the title of "Moderator". When Anderson started to complicated things and I couldn't keep up I "retired" like many of those who helped me, but still hang around to see what's going on. I've tried most of the browsers out there and I still find Avant "Lite" the most useful. I'm using 2014 Build 2 withe only minor problems. The main one being the proliferation of ybrowsers, so I've learned to close Avant fairly often (at least once a day) to keep them under control. I had just been deleting them in Task Manger, but if I deleted the wrong one I got the purple screen and had to refresh all of my tabs.

Granted, my needs may not be as complex as many of you as I'm not doing development or any kind of work-related things, but I find it hard to imagine anything missing from Avant that would force me to change. Granted, it doesn't play as well with Roboform as it did, but I still prefer RF keeping all of my passwords on my machine and not on some else's' server. I just realized that Anderson was ahead of the pack on the "cloud" concept.

Anyway, the point of this missive is that we were "spoiled" by Avant as it grew and demanded more of it (like using the Gecko engine) and because it's creator responded to that demand Avant started to trip over it's own feet.

As for security, as long as IE is kept updated and I have proper protections on my system, I don't expect Avant to protect me too.

I plan to stay the course with the Lite versions after I see how they are working. I don't install updates like the recent one which had nothing for the IE only version. If I want to use a site that only works with another browser, I'll use that browser for that site. It's only happened once over the years with a non IE browser. I have run into several recently that only seem to function with straight IE, but it's easy enough to open it to deal with the site and then close it and continue with Avant. That may or may not be something changed in the 2014 builds--I don't know. It's just as likely to have something to do with the design of the site itself.

Enough. One of the pleasures of being an Old F-----I mean a member of the AvantGuard is that I can look back and see where we've been and watch where we're headed without having to explain why the developer does what he does--I'm just very glad he keeps trying.
Image

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Re: Microsoft realized their mistakes...

Post by mbrazil » Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:10 am

mekd wrote:Why only focus on the missing features, while Avant lacks the basic stability and functions so poorly?
I still use Avant 2013 build 23, and I have been using it since Anderson released it. It IS buggy, but not so buggy that I can't use it or that I'd be willing to use any of the nearly useless versions that came after it. Avant 2013 build 23 is basically Avant 2012 with a few additional features and newer versions of the rendering engines.

What I and some others have been advocating for some time now is that Anderson either abandon the current version of Avant and return to debugging and developing Avant based on build 23 (or Avant 2012) or split the product into two versions (one based on 2013/23 and one based on the current build of 2014) that would, hopefully, satisfy both groups of users (those that need the features and those that like the new, crippled user interface and/or run ancient computers that can't handle the load of a full-featured browser, like like Avant used to be).

I focus on the missing features, because I came to depend on many of them and find it very disruptive, annoying, and time-consuming to try to work without them. Bugs/stability issues can be resolved without gutting the software, but missing features cannot be restored unless the developer commits to restoring them, and so far, Anderson has had nothing to say in answer to many, many posts relating to these issues and hasn't even discussed the feature set at all. Anderson almost never reads these forums (he told me that himself), and apparently, either xiaobing doesn't pass the complaints, criticisms, and suggestions on to him, or he doesn't care about them and doesn't care about the needs and opinions of the people who have been using Avant for many years and who have been donating regularly to support his continued development of Avant. Needless to say, we feel cheated and insulted by this attitude.

Actually, I have two areas of criticism of the new Avant: the features that were removed and the new user interface, which brings nothing to the browser but bling and a less-crowded window (and much less ability to have the toolbars and buttons we are used to and need displayed when and where we need them). Some have claimed that the old code couldn't be optimized to improve the speed, and that's why a total rewrite with a great reduction in the feature set was "necessary." I don't buy that. Just doing a thorough debugging of the old code is bound to improve the speed to some degree, and doing whatever streamlining/optimizing is possible would also help. As I've said before, Anderson may be a good developer and coder, but he's not much of a businessman. Ignoring the needs, opinions, and preferences of long-time users who have also donated money to support his work is proof of that. Why would anyone even consider further donations if he's likely to remove and discard some other important feature(s) at any time without first consulting the user base?

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Re: Microsoft realized their mistakes...

Post by keza » Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:06 pm

I have no problem with functions. The only thing is the overall speed. AB features are of the top and you can simple configure AB to your likes. Also no problem here with FF engine and with the Y browsers. For functions just use ‘crystal’ skin and then right click on the browsers on top and just pick your options. Then go to AB options right under ‘settings’ and then go to the ‘settings’ of FireFox. Is there a missing function, just go with FF to add-ons and search for the function add-on that you need and then can you make the functions of the add-on visible in the add-on bar on top of the browser but that cannot be used every time with all the add-ons but you can make it then visible with the add-on bar of FireFox and that bar will be visible beneath the browser. My opinion is that everyone that complains of the functions of AB ...then you have not scared the surface of this browser yet.

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Re: Microsoft realized their mistakes...

Post by creep » Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:39 pm

@Keza
Yes, we can tell you are a "newbie" ...

We know very well what Avant offers now ... it's a lot less than it used to offer.

There are people who've been using it for years and used to make full use of its features ... :)

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Re: Microsoft realized their mistakes...

Post by keza » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:39 pm

What do you say off another...

There are no functions missing for good surfing and when you miss a function then go under the hood or find something like an add-on to complete the browser for you. I have also used AB for many years but I do not sit on my … but I go looking for a solution.


:angel:

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Re: Microsoft realized their mistakes...

Post by mbrazil » Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:28 pm

keza wrote:My opinion is that everyone that complains of the functions of AB ...then you have not scared the surface of this browser yet.
keza, you don't have any problem with features/functions because you never used Avant before they were removed, so you don't even know what they were.

None of the Firefox, IE, and Chrome extensions that are intended to modify or add to the Firefox, IE, or Chrome user interface work with Avant, because Avant doesn't use the user interfaces from these browsers -- it has its own (in fact, that's all Avant really is -- a front end/user interface that uses the Firefox, IE, and Chrome rendering engines). Not only that, but browser extensions add security risks and slow the browser down, and some of them have memory leaks and other coding problems that can make the browser unstable. You need to research and test them carefully, or you'll end up with problems (this is true for all browsers, not just Avant). So, it's best to use as few extensions as possible. I do use several, but in the past, I've tried to use some others and have had to remove them because they destabilized Avant, caused severe memory leaks, or interfered with something they weren't supposed to affect. In addition, there aren't extensions available to replace most of the features that Anderson removed from Avant -- in fact, there are very few that could, because they'd have to be written for the Avant user interface.

FYI, I've been using my own custom Firefox toolbars and the Vertical Toolbar extension for a long time. They're helpful, but they do not and cannot substitute for the Avant toolbars and the buttons that were available for the Avant toolbars before Anderson took them away. You cannot move buttons from any Firefox toolbar to an Avant toolbar, and vice versa.

My opinion is that you have no idea what you're talking about, because you never used the versions of Avant that had the features, functions, toolbars, and buttons that are now missing. The new Avant may be adequate for your limited needs, but for an Avant power user, it's just a flashy looking shadow of what Avant used to be and used to be capable of. IT SUCKS!

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Re: Microsoft realized their mistakes...

Post by keza » Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:29 am

First off all stop saying that I do not know what I'm talking about!

None of the Firefox, IE, and Chrome extensions that are intended to modify or add to the Firefox, IE, or Chrome user interface work with Avant, because Avant doesn't use the user interfaces from these browsers -- it has its own (in fact, that's all Avant really is -- a front end/user interface that uses the Firefox, IE, and Chrome rendering engines).
Not correct! I have 7 extensions that work perfectly with AB. These are:

AdBlock plus with my own filters
Download status bar (very handy)
Magic actions for Youtube
Norton vulnerability Protection
NoScript
Self-destructing Cookies
Turn off the lights

These extensions works perfectly with AB.
Not only that, but browser extensions add security risks and slow the browser down, and some of them have memory leaks and other coding problems that can make the browser unstable. You need to research and test them carefully, or you'll end up with problems (this is true for all browsers, not just Avant)
I know that because I tested it all. No leaks what so ever and what the security concern the browser is more secure with AdBlock plus, Norton vulnerability Protection, NoScript and Self-destructing Cookies.
So, it's best to use as few extensions as possible.
Correct!
In addition, there aren't extensions available to replace most of the features that Anderson removed from Avant --
I have no idea over what features you are talking about?
in fact, there are very few that could, because they'd have to be written for the Avant user interface.
That's not true. You can perfectly install any FF extension in the Add-on bar and then make it visible in AB because you can customize the FF add-on toolbar.
You cannot move buttons from any Firefox toolbar to an Avant toolbar, and vice versa.
I can. Do you now of the function Add-on buttons? Well you can go to options and attach an add-on for IE and then make it also work with AB and make it visible in AB. I have Turn off the lights and PW Depot 7 without problems in AB but yes not all the extensions work that way.
The new Avant may be adequate for your limited needs, but for an Avant power user, it's just a flashy looking shadow of what Avant used to be and used to be capable of. IT SUCKS!
Have you ever used the tweaks for FF? Type in the bar about:config and say then that I have limit needs!
because you never used the versions of Avant that had the features, functions, toolbars, and buttons that are now missing
So give me examples of what YOU are talking about...

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