Petition

Discuss Avant Browser. Do not post support requests, bug reports, suggestions for new or improved features, etc. here. Put those in the Help, Bug Reports, and Requests forums, respectively.

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mbrazil
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Petition

Post by mbrazil » Fri May 03, 2013 5:32 pm

This is a petition to Anderson to convince him to separate the new UI into a separate version of Avant or to abandon the new UI completely.

It's become very obvious that the Avant we know and love is gone unless Anderson is willing to continue to develop a version of Avant based on where he left off in Avant 2012. There are some aspects of the new UI that are good and that don't seem to have negative side-effects when using the classic skins, and these can be added to the classic Avant if he wants to do that, but most of the new UI is detrimental to the overall usability of Avant.

These should be Anderson's priorities:

1. What Avant needs most, and this should be Anderson's highest priority, is an intensive effort to fix all the outstanding bugs existing in Avant 2012 build 197, and when this is done, call it Avant 2013 in place of the current Avant 2013, which should be abandoned or split off into a separate version.

2. Next, the long list of unimplemented user requests should be considered, and those requests that can be implemented without detracting from the stability of Avant should be the next order of business.

3. Optimize the code to improve performance and stability.

4. Determine whether any of the new features implemented in the "new UI" can be ported to new Avant 2013 without detracting in any way from it's usability and without detracting in any way from the classic skins. When this list of potential features is complete, present it to us on these forums so that we can provide our input as to whether or not these features should be added.

Please reply to this post to "sign" this petition or to state your views for or against this petition.

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Re: Petition

Post by brawnymike » Fri May 03, 2013 6:47 pm

I'm afraid I must concur with mbrazil, in major part.

This scheme of sacrificing the utility, ease of use, & flexibility of Avant all in the name of jumping on some trendy, new UI bandwagon is so wrongheaded that it boggles my mind. I'm reminded of a great cafe I knew which was known for its chocolate confections. At some point, the owner/baker became enamoured of a new trend of "enhancing" chocolate by using cinnamon, so he changed all of his confections from chocolate to chocolate-cinnamon confections. While there may be folks out there who orgasm for chocolate & cinnamon together, those folks accounted for virtually none of his clientele, so he ended up destroying his business.

Countless individuals (not just mbrazil) have posted to the forums to express consternation and displeasure at this current compulsion to hobble AB in order to force it into this new UI which nobody asked for and which may taste good to somebody, somewhere ... but it's all cinnamon-adulterated chocolate to me.

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Re: Petition

Post by Tinman57 » Sat May 04, 2013 1:23 am

I don't like it!!! This new skin isn't nearly as configurable as the original Windows Traditional skin, as I have pointed out in another post.

I've noticed that even though this version uses a little less WS Private bytes, it makes other background task associated with Avant to use more Working Set RAM. And then there's the system slow-down with the new version. Click a link to open a new tab and the whole system bogs down for up to two minutes.

I opened up a page that only had 4 small pictures on it that were links, and one of the ybrowsers was using 645 MB of RAM. That's just too much RAM for one page without any ads, animations or video's. http://vlmc.minus.com/
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Re: Petition

Post by Crazy_John » Sat May 04, 2013 6:11 pm

mbrazil wrote:abandon the new UI completely.
That shouldn't happen , if that happens the 100% cpu usage seeing videos and in pages with scripts running will be back.

To me this 107 version is the best of avant , 99% of what i need to surf in the net is there and working well .

What i think that will happen is that in future versions avant will have more things of the old old skins , more fix's , more engines updates ... but that will be done in several versions , not just in the next version .

As the old "saying" says:
Rome wasn't built in a day

xiaobing said some time ago that they will make the new ui look like the old old skins .

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Re: Petition

Post by mbrazil » Sat May 04, 2013 6:56 pm

Crazy_John wrote:
mbrazil wrote:abandon the new UI completely.
That shouldn't happen , if that happens the 100% cpu usage seeing videos and in pages with scripts running will be back.
See number 3 in the petition. The reason for the reduced CPU usage in the 2013 versions is that the new UI includes optimized code to make it more efficient. The classic UI in Avant 2012 can be reworked to provide the same efficiency without introducing all the many, many bugs that came with the new UI. Also, according to what xiaobing told us Anderson said about the Sidebar, we'll never be able to get the Sidebar back on the left side of the window as long as the new UI is part of Avant. As far as I'm concerned (and apparently quite a few other users agree with me), not being able to have the Sidebar on the left is a deal-breaker. If that (and/or several other things) can't or won't be fixed, I'm done with Avant.
Crazy_John wrote:What i think that will happen is that in future versions avant will have more things of the old old skins , more fix's , more engines updates ... but that will be done in several versions , not just in the next version .
Normally, I'd agree with you, but from the responses we've been getting from Anderson (via xiaobing), it sounds like he's either unable or unwilling to attempt to fix quite a few of the problems and deficiencies in Avant 2013. It sounds as though he considers many of the problems caused by the new UI to be insurmountable and that the features, configuration settings, buttons, etc. that do not exist anymore in Avant 2013 build 107 cannot be restored. He also seems to think that the new UI (primarily its appearance) is mandatory and must be kept as is even at the expense of driving away many of his long-term users. I don't know if this is accurate, but if it is, splitting Avant into two versions, one with the new UI and the other an optimized version of Avant 2012, is the only thing that will save Avant. The choice isn't really between the new UI and the old UI -- if we're stuck with the negative effects of the new UI, the choice is between somehow eliminating these negative effects or no Avant at all, because for most users, the new UI has ruined Avant.

If you haven't already, read all the posts from the last few weeks, and you'll see lots of users are very unhappy with things that are missing, things that have been added and can't be disabled, things that require additional mouse clicks to do compared to previous versions, and bugs that we're being told can't be fixed.

I think you'd be very pleased with a new, optimized version of Avant 2013 based on the Avant 2012 code and without the new UI. You wouldn't have to deal with high CPU usage, and you'd have all the flexibility and ease-of-use that Avant has been known for. You wouldn't have to have any toolbars, etc. showing that you don't want to see, but anything that you do want shown could be enabled.
Crazy_John wrote:As the old "saying" says: Rome wasn't built in a day
I wouldn't use Rome as an example for this if I were you. Rome is actually a very good comparison with the current Avant situation. Rome wasn't built in a day, but when it had been built, it was probably the most magnificent city in the world. Then, it degenerated and fell to pieces because its rulers and its citizens lost track of who and what they were. That's exactly what's happening with Avant now. It took a long time for Avant to become as good as it was, and now Anderson has apparently lost sight of what Avant started out to be and is changing it into something else that doesn't serve its original purpose and appears to be falling apart. It's really too much of a cliche, but it appears that Anderson is fiddling around while Avant burns.

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Re: Petition

Post by Crazy_John » Sat May 04, 2013 8:13 pm

Anderson changed avant to the new ui , that for some reason is faster than the old , if it was simple\easier just put speed on the old ui i think he would have done that , or not ? (But then maybe he couldn't have the chrome skins in avant ? i dont know , im just saying)

Its public that he want that avant has also the chrome skin because theres people that want use it , theres posts here in the forum of people asking for it , but he also want that avant have the old skins and will make it as the old old skins look like , one small example is , the new tab button was not in the custom buttons , now it is , this is just one example but theres more , and there will be more in the next versions .
Want bet that the side bar will be at the left side in the future versions ?

There were some versions of avant that were not working very well for me , i was using a older version until a newer version works well , as i said Rome wasn't built in a day fits in this situation , things get done but not all in one today , looks like build 23 is working +\- ok to you , why not wait abit more until a newer version please you . I think you can also grab the gecko folder from the 107 version and put in the 23 .

I understand what you mean but Rome wasn't built in a day means "Things takes time to do" , its a expression used to say that nothing is done very fast , usually people say Rome but could be said "the best city of the world" but in some months could be a bad city or any other city or word .

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Re: Petition

Post by Tinman57 » Sat May 04, 2013 11:04 pm

Crazy_John wrote: To me this 107 version is the best of avant , 99% of what i need to surf in the net is there and working well .
Sooooo, that's why they call you "Crazy". :P
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mbrazil
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Re: Petition

Post by mbrazil » Sun May 05, 2013 12:18 am

Crazy_John wrote:Anderson changed avant to the new ui , that for some reason is faster than the old , if it was simple\easier just put speed on the old ui i think he would have done that , or not ? (But then maybe he couldn't have the chrome skins in avant ? i dont know , im just saying)
The "Chrome skin" couldn't be implemented in the classic UI according to a post from 2009, so it wasn't practical to implement a Chrome skin without reworking more than just the UI. There is no reason the code for Avant 2012 couldn't have been optimized to improve its speed, although it might not have been possible to make it as fast as the current builds. xiaobing has indicated many times that Anderson's top priority is what you call the "Chrome skin" even if that means that some of Avant's best features are a thing of the past.

Most likely, one of the reasons the 2013 builds are faster is that quite a few features and functions that were in Avant 2012 have been removed in Avant 2013. That alone would improve the speed, but it also greatly reduces the configurability and ease-of-use, and it eliminates some of the features that make Avant a better browser than the others.
Crazy_John wrote:Its public that he want that avant has also the chrome skin because theres people that want use it
So, what's wrong with having one version with the new UI and one with the classic skins fully implemented? We now know we can't have one version that does both, and there seem to be many, many more people posting that they don't like the new UI than people who say they do.
Crazy_John wrote:theres posts here in the forum of people asking for it
I just searched the forums and could find only one thread asking for the Chrome skin, and it's from 2009. Where are the others?
Crazy_John wrote:but he also want that avant have the old skins and will make it as the old old skins look like , one small example is , the new tab button was not in the custom buttons , now it is , this is just one example but theres more , and there will be more in the next versions .
Then why does xiaobing keep telling us that some of the features we're asking for from the classic skins won't or can't be provided with the new UI? Even if some of these things do come back in "the next versions," how long will we have to wait for a version that has all the things we used to have in Avant 2012? It's one thing to wait for new features and feature requests to be implemented, but it's another thing altogether to have to wait (days? weeks? months? years?) for things we had last year and depended on that have disappeared.

I understand that you and some others with older, less powerful computers are happy about the increased speed of build 107, because it makes your PC a little less annoying, and that's fine, but for many of us, speed has not been the problem. I have no complaints about the speed of the classic Avant on my system. It rarely uses more than about 20% of the CPU (and usually less), memory consumption is not excessive (with the Firefox engine), and videos play smoothly for the most part (videos from some sites pause too frequently, but that's caused by the servers from those sites, not Avant). If all you're looking for is speed, why not try one of the other browsers that have cloned the Chrome UI and that are optimized for speed? They don't have all the extra features that Avant has (or maybe used to have), so they are probably even faster. If you like the Chrome skin, you obviously are not interested in a full-featured UI, since Chrome is a bare-bones browser anyway.
Crazy_John wrote:Want bet that the side bar will be at the left side in the future versions ?

That depends on what you mean by future. It wouldn't surprise me to see this and other very important features somehow return at some point in the future (probably after users desert Avant in droves because the features they used Avant for are gone). The problem with that is that by then it will be too late for most of the users that have switched to another browser that satisfies their needs like Avant used to. Anderson has a limited amount of time to restore Avant to its former glory before people give up on it, and a lot of them won't come back.
Crazy_John wrote:I think you can also grab the gecko folder from the 107 version and put in the 23.
I tried that shortly after build 107 came out, and there were problems, so I had to put it back to the previous version of gecko.

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Re: Petition

Post by Crazy_John » Sun May 05, 2013 2:34 pm

Tinman57 wrote:
Crazy_John wrote: To me this 107 version is the best of avant , 99% of what i need to surf in the net is there and working well .
Sooooo, that's why they call you "Crazy". :P
i call that to myself , the others dont . :D


It is "ugly" say the true ? i dont lie to myself .
Its what i think of the 107 version , works very well here best version of avant no doubt about that .
The version 23 its gone for me , i hope i will never need get back to it again .

Im waiting for improvements for the next version , for example separate the title bar from the management bar and other things , but that doesn't make me want quit of use avant or go back to version 23 , because the important things that i need from avant are working very well .

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Re: Petition

Post by Crazy_John » Sun May 05, 2013 3:37 pm

mbrazil wrote: what's wrong with having one version with the new UI and one with the classic skins fully implemented?
Nothing wrong i think its a good idea , like that who prefer the old old skins can use them until the new old skins are as the old old skins .
If that change is fast its ok , If that change takes 2 or 3 weeks of work , i prefer that that 2 or 3 weeks or work go to the version 107 ( im beeing selfish here ? :) ) .
You know the extension icons of firefox at the top-right , why they are not done yet , because its not done with 2 clicks , takes time , we need wait .
mbrazil wrote: many more people posting that they don't like the new UI than people who say they do.
Many people when they like something , they dont come to the forum to say that they like this or that , they just use it and thats it , if its the inverse then yes , they come to the forum to request or try fix something .
mbrazil wrote:
Crazy_John wrote:theres posts here in the forum of people asking for it
I just searched the forums and could find only one thread asking for the Chrome skin, and it's from 2009. Where are the others?
1 more here , but theres more , i remember of 4 or 5 or more , after see many people asking for it , thats why i posted in that topic to be as a option .
http://forum.avantbrowser.com/viewtopic ... n+#p178759
mbrazil wrote: If all you're looking for is speed, why not try one of the other browsers that have cloned the Chrome UI and that are optimized for speed?
Speed its not all i want , i use firefox rendering , chrome rendering is faster but uses much more memory and thats a NO for me , many times in google maps i use chrome rendering , it loads the pics much faster than firefox , i prefer speed and less memory usage thats why i prefer firefox rendering .
107 version has alot of speed , dont put my cpu at 100% as in version 23 .
mbrazil wrote:
Crazy_John wrote:I think you can also grab the gecko folder from the 107 version and put in the 23.

I tried that shortly after build 107 came out, and there were problems, so I had to put it back to the previous version of gecko.
Around 10 versions ago i tried that and was working , with the 23 i didn't tried .

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Re: Petition

Post by Tinman57 » Sun May 05, 2013 10:11 pm

Crazy_John wrote:
Tinman57 wrote:
Crazy_John wrote: It is "ugly" say the true ? i dont lie to myself .
Its what i think of the 107 version , works very well here best version of avant no doubt about that .
I truly am glad that it's the best version for you, but for the rest of us it's the absolute worst yet. A lot of configurabilities are now gone, and the "new-old-new" UI is just cludgy and harder to get around and there are new bugs introduced. I'm even seeing more memory use with this version, BIG TIME!, and have seen unusual crashes that I never had before with the earlier versions.

I can remember back in the mid 2012 builds when Avant was just about as perfect as you could get with only a few bugs that could/should have been tackled. But we've been beating around the bush on all this and MBrazil has pretty much said everything that needs to be said.

Apparently Anderson don't read these forums. Either that or he could care less and has another direction he wants to take Avant for the future. I could never understand his reasonings without actually talking to him or reading a post from him.....
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Re: Petition

Post by abuser » Sun May 26, 2013 2:42 pm

Special thanks to you mike for detailed testing & reporting!! :clap:

i second you......

couple of most irritating things what i noticed in this (even in few last builds as well) are

1. from options even if you select if closed then minimize to sys tray, instead it exits!!
2. click on history icon it used open a pane left side...having used it for years no i am finding it too tough when the opens right side
3. open a tab visit any site...wait till it loads completely then open another tab in address bar still the URL of previous tab/site appears......this is confusing & irritating
4. delete skin file from avant folder it doesn't makes any changes still you will get to see same icons (skin what you had selected!!)
5. even replacing skin file doesnt makes any difference!!

as you mentioned since nobody asked for any of these UI changes so i dont understand why these were introduced!! is it an experiment with users?

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Re: Petition

Post by Tinman57 » Mon May 27, 2013 12:15 am

I've been watching my CPU usage here lately. Along with the increased memory usage I'm finding that ybrowser is eating a lot of CPU cycles, like up to 67%. If I have several tabs open, the memory and CPU usage gets so high that I have to exit Avant and start over several times each session. I have also found ybrowser.exe running in the background and sucking up massive CPU cycles and RAM even long after I exited Avant, and there weren't any errors or crashes that I was aware of. Once I forced it to close with Process Explorer, I got my memory back and my CPU went down to almost 0% usage. Avant also makes svchost.exe go up to 100% CPU usage sometimes, which pretty much stops everything until svchost finishes with whatever it was doing.

Only thing we can do is either use something else until a new version comes out or suffer with all the bugs.... :(
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Re: Petition

Post by mbrazil » Mon May 27, 2013 2:35 am

You could use the Firefox engine for awhile. At the moment, with 34 open tabs, firefox.exe is averaging around 10% CPU usage and around 560 MB memory consumption. With the Firefox engine, there is never more than one instance of firefox.exe running. plugin-container.exe, the only other Firefox-engine process, has very little CPU or memory load unless one of the plugins is active, and even then, it doesn't amount to much. Both the Chrome and IE engines are CPU and memory hogs.

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Re: Petition

Post by Tinman57 » Tue May 28, 2013 3:52 am

mbrazil wrote:You could use the Firefox engine for awhile. At the moment, with 34 open tabs, firefox.exe is averaging around 10% CPU usage and around 560 MB memory consumption. With the Firefox engine, there is never more than one instance of firefox.exe running. plugin-container.exe, the only other Firefox-engine process, has very little CPU or memory load unless one of the plugins is active, and even then, it doesn't amount to much. Both the Chrome and IE engines are CPU and memory hogs.
Only problem with using Firefox is Roboform don't work with it, and I have Roboform for Avant installed too.... :(
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Re: Petition

Post by AXEMAN » Tue May 28, 2013 9:04 am

I have to agree with MIKE :) And TINMAN aswell :)

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Re: Petition

Post by SinisterSlay » Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:41 pm

I only want big buttons and text descriptions.

Why did you take those away!?

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