[split topic] Browser speeds

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[split topic] Browser speeds

Post by Browser Peeper » Fri Nov 20, 2009 4:36 am

kudos wrote:If you are a big Avant and Firefox fan, have you tried Orca yet?

Try pronouncing Avant with a Chinese accent since the developer is Chinese :-)
Yes, I did try Orca and I liked it. I prefer Avant. My preference for Avant is due to Avant's faster speed when compared to Orca.

If we're going to pronounce in a "Chinese way" then we need to read Avant from right to left instead of from left to right. Or, is it from top to bottom or bottom to top? Maybe that's Japanese. Anderson Che is Chinese? Really? I thought he was Swiss.

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This Skype add-on is magical!

Post by bksening » Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:47 pm

Browser Peeper wrote:My preference for Avant is due to Avant's faster speed when compared to Orca.
Realistically, that should be impossible.

Orca is based on Gecko rendering engine and Tracemonkey Javascript engine which are both faster than Avant, which is based on Trident rendering engine and Microsoft JScript for Javascript.

I have never found Avant to be faster than Orca. Granted, the rendering speed of Gecko versus Trident is much more debatable and closer, but Avant/Trident is certainly not significantly faster than Orca/Gecko.

Firefox/Gecko and Orca/Gecko is certainly not everyone's favorite alternate browser for nothing. Moreover, anyone using Javascript websites will instantly feel that any Trident based browser, including Avant, is horrendously slow.

My only wondering is if the Avant interface is faster than Orca's? Although my understanding is both the UI's are basically the same. Both the Avant and Orca UI are supposed to offer the same functionality (as much as can be possible) and also to be easier for code maintenance and development.

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Re: This Skype add-on is magical!

Post by DaComboMan » Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:19 pm

Me thinks it has to do with OS and resources too.

BTW, why is this posted under "bug reports"?
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Re: This Skype add-on is magical!

Post by abfan123 » Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:34 pm

Well, Gecko is slighly faster than the latest Trident just in the benchmark test. In real life scenario the speed is about the same. I'm constantly using heavy javascript/ajax powered sites and not feeling any significant difference between the latest IE and Firefox.
The next version of Avant should perform better than the current version of Avant.
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Re: This Skype add-on is magical!

Post by Browser Peeper » Sun Nov 22, 2009 4:21 am

DaComboMan wrote:Me thinks it has to do with OS and resources too.

BTW, why is this posted under "bug reports"?

You're absolutely right. I would like to address the various questions and statements but it would be wrong of me to do that here, considering this particular part of the forum is for "bug reports". Can we move the comments beyond my initial "bug report" and the first couple of responses to "Discussions"? Here, I'm referring to the "conversation" about the comparable speed of the browsers.

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Re: This Skype add-on is magical!

Post by bigC » Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:12 pm

Browser Peeper wrote:
DaComboMan wrote:Me thinks it has to do with OS and resources too.

BTW, why is this posted under "bug reports"?

You're absolutely right. I would like to address the various questions and statements but it would be wrong of me to do that here, considering this particular part of the forum is for "bug reports". Can we move the comments beyond my initial "bug report" and the first couple of responses to "Discussions"? Here, I'm referring to the "conversation" about the comparable speed of the browsers.
Done

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Re: This Skype add-on is magical!

Post by Browser Peeper » Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:38 pm

bksening wrote:
Browser Peeper wrote:My preference for Avant is due to Avant's faster speed when compared to Orca.
Realistically, that should be impossible.

Orca is based on Gecko rendering engine and Tracemonkey Javascript engine which are both faster than Avant, which is based on Trident rendering engine and Microsoft JScript for Javascript.

I have never found Avant to be faster than Orca. Granted, the rendering speed of Gecko versus Trident is much more debatable and closer, but Avant/Trident is certainly not significantly faster than Orca/Gecko.

Firefox/Gecko and Orca/Gecko is certainly not everyone's favorite alternate browser for nothing. Moreover, anyone using Javascript websites will instantly feel that any Trident based browser, including Avant, is horrendously slow.

My only wondering is if the Avant interface is faster than Orca's? Although my understanding is both the UI's are basically the same. Both the Avant and Orca UI are supposed to offer the same functionality (as much as can be possible) and also to be easier for code maintenance and development.
The obsessive analytical side of my nature is splitting hairs here. I did some testing of various browsers and found that on a "cold boot" Avant was slightly faster than Orca. The difference was very small. Also, Avant was slightly faster in rendering webpages.
The test, while not clinical, was performed using http://www.numion.com/Stopwatch/index.html. I took the readings twice for certain tests and three times for other tests and then averaged the findings.

The tests were narrowed down to 3 final browsers. Here are the averaged download speeds of those browsers:

Google Chrome: 0.39336111111111111111.....

Avant: 0.70269444444444444444.....

Firefox: 0.82230555555555555556.....

Faster than a speeding Shrimp Boat!
While I am impressed with Google Chrome's speed and the few features it has, it is a browser very much in it's infancy. In this stage, it's a simple browser that runs really fast. Because of this maybe they should call it "The Forest Gump Browser".

Lost In Space!
Google Chrome is a spacious and very uncluttered browser that seems to place more importance on the viewing of the entire webpage as compared to some other browsers.

Now that we have it, what are we gonna do with it?
There is one feature in Google Chrome that I don't understand and can't imagine that I would ever use. The feature allows the removal of a tabbed webpage from within the confines of the browser window and then onto the computer's desktop. How would this feature be useful? Any given browser can be moved around. Why would it be necessary to move only one tabbed page?

It's in the back, behind the bar.
Accessibility to bookmarks in Google seems more of a hassle than I prefer. Why can't there be a selection, button or right click menu option for bookmarks? Why do the developers of Google Chrome think it is more convenient to open a "Bookmarks Bar" first and then possibly a folder first before being permitted to open a bookmark? I finally found the "Bookmarks Bar" and realized this must have something to do with accessibility to Bookmarks. Yes, I know, "duh!" But if you are looking for a selection of some type indicating "Bookmarks" or "Favorites" you will have a hard time finding it in Google Chrome.

Decisions, decisions...
Someone who chooses one of these browsers over the other because of site download speed differences would probably have a really full schedule. With speeds this close and this fast, stability and features are probably the more important criteria in choosing a browser. "Cold boot" speeds (the time it takes the browser to load when it is first activated right after the computer is first "booted up") are probably also more important (to the average person hurrying to check their E-mail before they go to work) than site download speeds. In the "cold boot" contest, Google Chrome and Avant seem to tie for first place. In this regard, Firefox is considerably slower.

Image is everything!
If you want to create your own browser "skin", and customize the whereabouts of the buttons, selections, toolbars, colors and almost everything else about your browser, than Firefox is the browser for you. In the category of customization, Firefox is the clear winner when compared to Avant and Google Chrome. As a matter of fact, I've never seen any browser as customizable as the current version of Firefox.

The envelope please...
To recap, in the category of "site download speed", Google Chrome is the winner.
In the category of "cold boot" speed, Avant and Google Chrome tie for the winning position.
In the category of "stability", Avant is the winner.
In the category of "browser that has the most optional features", Firefox is the winner.
In the category of "browser that has the most optional appearances", Firefox is the winner.
In the category of "browser that is the most user friendly", Avant is the winner. Actually, they are all very easy to use but when everything I can think of comes into consideration, Avant wins this category by a narrow margin.

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Re: [split topic] Browser speeds

Post by bksening » Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:31 pm

@Browser Peeper, I agree with most of your review and summary.

Could I just ask about "In the category of stability, Avant is the winner." ? In your notes and review, you didn't seem to mentioned anything about stability.

Also, regarding "the removal of a tabbed webpage from within the confines of the browser window and then onto the computer's desktop" is something both Mozilla is doing (with Prism) and Google does (with application shortcuts) that is going to be the next big push for an internet "cloud computing". Having the webpages/webapps running in a separate window on the computer's desktop is supposed to simulate the windowed application experience of current programs, but allow these apps to run directly from the cloud/internet.

These "desktop webpages/webapps" are a core feature of Chrome browser, which in turn forms the basis of ChromeOS.

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Re: [split topic] Browser speeds

Post by Browser Peeper » Tue Nov 24, 2009 5:48 am

bksening wrote:@Browser Peeper, I agree with most of your review and summary.

Could I just ask about "In the category of stability, Avant is the winner." ? In your notes and review, you didn't seem to mentioned anything about stability.

Also, regarding "the removal of a tabbed webpage from within the confines of the browser window and then onto the computer's desktop" is something both Mozilla is doing (with Prism) and Google does (with application shortcuts) that is going to be the next big push for an internet "cloud computing". Having the webpages/webapps running in a separate window on the computer's desktop is supposed to simulate the windowed application experience of current programs, but allow these apps to run directly from the cloud/internet.

These "desktop webpages/webapps" are a core feature of Chrome browser, which in turn forms the basis of ChromeOS.
Very interesting. I am not sure that I fully understand what you posted regarding apps running directly from the cloud/internet. Could you elaborate on that please. It must be an aspect of IT that I don't know about.
I needed to truncate some of my comments because my post was too long.
Stability was one of the deciding factors and you're not going to believe this but of the three "finalists" in this "competition", Avant was the only one that didn't "crash". Some I've told about this comparison could not believe that Mozilla Firefox ever crashed. It has, several times, especially when composing an E-mail in Yahoo Mail.
Google Chrome crashed during the initial testing.
I have a fairly long history with Avant which I started using originally in 2001. I stopped using it in favor of Mozilla Firefox in 2006, not because I was dissatisfied with Avant but because I liked that so much customizing could be done with Firefox. (Expressing my creative side, I created a red colored browser which I call "Red Foxx" and a Gold colored browser which I call "Goldie Fox" among other self indulgent Mozilla Firefox modifications). Unfortunately, for some unknown reason, Mozilla Firefox started crashing about 4 months ago. This happened one too many times and I switched back the greater percentage of my browsing to Avant which, by the way, has never crashed in all the time I've used it, to the best of my recollection.
Someone told me about an unofficial Avant modification device which is supposed to enable greater customizing. I don't know what it's called. Has anyone had any experience with this?

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Re: [split topic] Browser speeds

Post by Browser Peeper » Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:23 am

Since I did the last posting, I've been using Orca instead of Avant. And, like Avant, it is an excellent expediently performing browser. And, now that I understand how the On-line storage functions, it has become an almost exact twin to my Avant Browser. Thank you to Kudos and Andre for helping me understand it.
I am going to do another speed comparison of Avant and Orca to determine if the same results are achieved.

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Re: [split topic] Browser speeds

Post by abfan123 » Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:06 am

To make the speed comparision fair enough, Please do the following:
1.Switch Avant to IE8 engine
2.Remove the "MSIE 6.0" part from the user agent string.
Again, In real life scenarios, It's usually extremely hard to feel the difference between the latest Trident and the latest Gecko.
As of the standards, Yes, IE doesn't support ACID3, But ACID 3 is not "standardized" yet, So officially it can't be called "standards".
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Re: [split topic] Browser speeds

Post by bksening » Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:29 am

Actually, in real life scenarios, use your normal websites that you normally go to. Real, working, service-oriented websites that do more than "just show stuff on the screen" are using more and more Javascript, eg. GMail, Facebook, Google Maps, etc, etc. You will easily feel and see that any Trident based browser, including Avant, is horrendously slow.

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Re: [split topic] Browser speeds

Post by abfan123 » Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:42 am

bksening wrote:Actually, in real life scenarios, use your normal websites that you normally go to. Real, working, service-oriented websites that do more than "just show stuff on the screen" are using more and more Javascript, eg. GMail, Facebook, Google Maps, etc, etc. You will easily feel and see that any Trident based browser, including Avant, is horrendously slow.

Again, I'm using websites with tones of javascript/ajax/flash/silverlight etc and everything is opening within less than 1 second in IE.
GMail? I'm not sure what you're doing there, But the email message seems to open even before the release of a mouse button, Which is less than 1 second as well.
As of Avant - Yes, It's slower than IE on multi-cores processors but the next version of Avant should resolve this issue.
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Re: [split topic] Browser speeds

Post by bksening » Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:42 pm

Hi abfan123, you keep saying it is hard to tell the difference between Trident and Gecko speeds, and I don't doubt that's probably true for you, but you would certainly be the exceptional case.

I find through practical, hands-on use of many computers that it is easy to feel and see that Trident is horrendously slow compared to Gecko from many and multiply different benchmarks tested, real life websites and working scenarios I have supported, and from many different computers with vastly different hardware specs.

From your computer specs in your sig, it's probably not too surprising that speeds for Trident and Gecko seem alot closer to you for someone with a Core2 Quad computer with 4GB of 400MHz DDR2 RAM.

P.S. And this is just talking about the 2 slowest rendering engines as well. The fastest rendering engines are WebKit and Opera, which are both noticeably faster than Gecko. WebKit also has one of the fastest Javascript processors too (ie. Nitro, quite closely tied neck-and-neck in speed with Google Chrome's V8), but it is so unfortunate that Opera, which previously had the fastest Javascript is now second slowest (only faster than IE's JScript).

P.P.S. I wonder if Anderson has ever considered wrapping his nice browser UI and features on top of WebKit core?

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Re: [split topic] Browser speeds

Post by ftboomer » Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:50 pm

I prefer Orca with Ad Block and FlashBlock. Both of which make Orca MUCH fater.
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Re: [split topic] Browser speeds

Post by abfan123 » Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:50 pm

Well, There are too many factors beside hardware that may affect speed & stability of a web browser.
It includes addons, Since a lot of addons (Especially toolbars & BHOs) are not coded correctly and may crash/slow down the page rendering/browser.
It include configuration, Believe it or not, But if you'll remove the "MSIE6" part from the Internet Explorer's UA string, Certain websites (Especially javascript based sites) would work significantly faster.
And certain other factors such as network/internet settings, proxy servers, Current network condition etc.
For example certain Flash objects may attempt to connect to some server side script to obtain some information while the server is busy and this may cause the web browser to hang in case if the developer forgot to "protect" the Flash object from it.
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Re: [split topic] Browser speeds

Post by flowrush » Thu Nov 26, 2009 4:33 am

I like how Maxthon 3.0 uses dual rendering engines.

Browser Peeper- care to test other browsers as well? Opera 10? K-Meleon?

Also SRWare Iron is a faster version of Chrome.

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Re: [split topic] Browser speeds

Post by flowrush » Thu Nov 26, 2009 4:45 am


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Re: [split topic] Browser speeds

Post by Browser Peeper » Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:39 am

Actually, the browsers I tested originally were (these aren't in any particular order) IE 8, Google Chrome, Mozilla Firefox, Opera, Avant and Orca. In these unofficial tests, it wasn't only the factor of speed I was testing. One of the other factors was stability. And, in that regard, the only browsers that did not crash were Avant and Orca. Yes, you read the previous sentence correctly. IE 8, Google Chrome, Mozilla Firefox and Opera all crashed at least once during the tests. When this happened in each case, I considered the possibility that something in my computer's system may have been causing the problem. As far as I can tell, there wasn't anything about my computer's system that was the cause. A validation of this is found in the fact that each of the browsers crashed while on different websites and/or while not on any website but only open and not displaying. Firefox, as only one example crashed not just once but a number of times while in Yahoo Mail while I was composing an E-mail (thank goodness for the "Drafts" folder).
Later, an error message from Mozilla appeared saying that an extension for Skype was causing stability issues. I deleted the extension and thought I had the problem solved but Firefox crashed again sometime later.
As detailed in the too brief outline of my research, if speed were the only consideration, Google Chrome would have won. Speed, however, was not the only consideration.
I am planning at some point to redo these tests taking into consideration the suggestions given by the members of this forum.
If someone else wants to do these tests too, please do. I would be interested in knowing the results.

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Re: [split topic] Browser speeds

Post by flowrush » Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:19 am

When it comes to stability, it's important to be noting what version you're testing especially with regular updates FF and Opera both get in that dept.

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